Alice: Welcome back to the Oathbringer reread, friends and frenemies! (Do we have any of those, Lyn?)
Lyn: Only the people who defend Moash.
A: Oh, yeah. Those. Well, y’all join us this week anyway to see the results of Kaladin’s choices back in Chapter 14, as he learns a few disturbing things about the parshmen he’s been following. Dive in to the discussion!
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread. This week, there are teeny tiny references to The Bands of Mourning and Mistborn: Secret History in the Weighty Words section, so if you haven’t read those, you might want to skip Alice’s comments there. But if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Kaladin
WHERE: Rural Alethkar
WHEN: 1174.1.3.2 (the day after Chapter 14, when he surrendered to the parshmen)
Kaladin is a prisoner of the freed parshmen, who are making their way across the country in the dead of night. Syl reveals that the parshmen and their Voidspren guide can see her, so she’s masquerading as a windspren to avoid being recognized. After a startling realization about the nature of his captors, Kaladin cuts his own bonds and offers to help his captors. They accept.
Threshold of the storm
Title: Trapped In Shadows
“I have spent my entire life living in a fog,” the parshman yelled at him. “Every day knowing I should say something, do something to stop this! Every night clutching my daughter, wondering why the world seems to move around us in the light—while we are trapped in shadows. They sold her mother. Sold her. Because she had birthed a healthy child, which made her good breeding stock.
“Do you understand that, human? Do you understand watching your family be torn apart, and knowing you should object—knowing deep in your soul that something is profoundly wrong? Can you know that feeling of being unable to say a single storming word to stop it?”
The parshman pulled him even closer. “They may have taken your freedom, but they took our minds.”
A: I know that’s a long quote, but I can’t help feeling that we need the whole thing in here. We’ll talk about it more below.
Heralds
Jezrien x 4: Herald of Kings, patron of Windrunners, divine attributes of Protecting & Leading, role of King.
A: This seems fairly clear: Kaladin, although he avoids doing anything Windrunner-y, is moving into a role of protecting and leading these lost souls. The spren guiding them doesn’t have much sense of how to actually take care of their physical needs or to keep them from being detected, so Kaladin just… does.
Icon
Kaladin’s Banner & Spears icon show that he’s the primary—and in this case, sole—POV.
Epigraph
It is not a lesson I claim to be able to teach. Experience herself is the great teacher, and you must seek her directly.
—From Oathbringer, preface
A: The double meanings, they are fraught! Obviously, in context of the in-world Oathbringer, Dalinar is talking about his own experiences, and his hope that by seeing what he has done, others may learn the same things through less painful experiences. In context of this chapter, though, Kaladin is trying to use his past experience to relate to the parshmen, and to teach them the things that will make their new experience less miserable. He’s also trying to learn what he can about their new forms and purposes, in order to give Dalinar the best possible information about them—and of course, that will now be done through his own experience as their fellow traveller.
Relationships & Romances
A: We see a couple of interesting tidbits in this chapter. The less obvious one is Kaladin’s brief reminiscence about his various escape attempts, one of which involved a person named Nalma. All we get here is her name; we’ll learn more (and talk more) about her in Chapter 97, many months from now.
The other relationship that begins to develop here is that between Kaladin’s primary as-yet-unnamed guard and his young daughter. Between scenes, Kaladin got a look inside that one good tent, and discovered that it held children—parsh children, which we’ve never seen mentioned before, but of course they brought their children. We see this little girl’s love for her father, and his for her, but we also get to see here her uncertainty and fear for him, and for all of her people:
“Will they really chase us?” the girl asked. “Why can’t they just let us go? Could you go back and tell them? We don’t want trouble. We just want to go away.”
A: This whole conversation is a big step in Kaladin’s loss of antagonism toward, and the development of friendship with, these particular parshmen, so there’s that relationship too. The conversation has a heartbreaking conclusion:
“Your ancestors—the people like you from long ago. There was a war, and…”
Storms. How did you explain slavery to a seven-year-old?
A: Indeed.
Bruised & Broken
A: Just one tiny quick note here, as Kaladin thinks that the end of the Weeping should be near, bringing highstorms and stormlight, but also:
Soon, blessedly, this would all dry up and he could finally see the sun again.
After the long, rainy months we’ve experienced here in the Pacific northwest, I can relate to this. These past few days of sunshine have been so welcome!
Squires & Sidekicks
L: I find it interesting to note that in the card game the parshmen were playing, Kaladin points out that “The squire can capture if supported by an allied card.” It would make sense if the rules of the card game are based in history—most games in our real world like chess or our own playing card suits at least slightly match up to real-world analogous actions or powers. A pawn in chess can only move and capture in small, clearly delineated actions whereas a queen or a knight has more power on the board. So, if the squire in the card game can capture if supported by allies, what does this imply about a squire’s historical power in Roshar back before the Recreance?
A: Well, it makes sense with what we’ve seen. A Knight Radiant’s squires can’t do much when their Knight is too far away, as witness Bridge Four while Kaladin is off chasing parshmen. But when he gets back, they will develop nearly the same range of powers that he has. It’s pretty clear, IMO, that this game does have strong foundations in the Knights Radiant; if a brightlord designates a squire, people will generally treat them with whatever respect is generated by the brightlord himself. But the Radiants have an immutable limitation: squires can’t capture do anything magic without the specific physical proximity of the Knight.
L: And then we get this other interesting little tidbit:
“[The King] can capture any other card except another king, and can’t be captured himself unless touched by three enemy cards of knight or better. Um … and he is immune to the Soulcaster.”
L: Immune to the Soulcaster, eh? Just a fun rule that someone thought of over the course of the years, or might there be some hint of truth in here?
A: I wish I knew… It seems so significant! Hey, I’m going to go look something up. BRB.
… Okay, I’m back. You know that Surgebinding chart on the front endpaper of The Way of Kings? There are lines connecting some orders to others besides the ones next to them. The Windrunners (Jezrien, King) are connected to the Edgedancers and the Lightweavers, but the line from the Lightweavers (who can soulcast) to the Windrunners is broken by the larkin. I have no idea if that means a tootin’ thing, but there it is.
Flora & Fauna
The rockbud needs a barrier between itself and the water outside for some reason, though it always seems eager to drink after a storm.
L: Interesting. I wonder why?
A: Maybe it can tell when enough water is enough, so it closes up and keeps the grain inside from getting waterlogged and rotting? Alternatively, maybe he’s got it backward: it’s eager to drink after a storm, but the barrier is there to keep the moisture from leaching out when things get dry.
Places & Peoples
Parshmen did breed, though people often spoke of them being bred, like animals. And, well, that wasn’t far from the truth, was it? Everyone knew it.
What would Shen–Rlain–think if Kaladin had said those words out loud?
L: Ah, the inbred racism. I love that Kaladin thinks of Rlain here, though. Often times, the best way to break yourself out of the privilege bubble is to make friends with someone who isn’t as privileged as you are. Seeing what they go through, or even hearing about it from someone you care about, is a more effective form of empathy than simply looking at things from the outside. Some people just have a hard time connecting to and understanding alternative points of view if they’ve never interacted with or befriended someone who holds that point of view—or place of privilege. So the fact that Kaladin is drawing from his friendship with Rlain to understand his new captors rings very true to me.
“You’re not monsters,” Kaladin whispered. “You’re not soldiers. You’re not even the seeds of the void. You’re just … runaway slaves.”
A: So… that could have been phrased better, dude, but this is a moment of revelation. Kaladin figures out why it all seemed so familiar, and all of a sudden the whole thing clicks for him. He understands them (in the way that’s important for him); they are no longer a terror nor a puzzle, but people in a known and sympathetic situation. Unfortunately, the parshman who overhears him misunderstands his “just runaway slaves” as sneering at them, rather than identifying with them.
L: However…
“When they make a human into a slave,” Kaladin said, “they brand him. I’ve been here. Right where you are.”
“And you think that makes you understand?”
L: I won’t quote the entirety of the parshman’s speech that follows this again, because it’s quite long, but the gist of it is “no, you do not understand, because you haven’t been living this hell for your entire life, your PARENTS didn’t live it, THEIR parents didn’t live it” and so on. And it’s true. Recognizing your privilege–as Kaladin has done–is important. But it’s equally as important to realize that no matter how well you can empathize, you can never truly understand, not unless you’ve been marginalized in a similar fashion yourself.
“They may have taken your freedom, but they took our minds.”
L: This is so, so powerful.
A: Right through the heart.
“I may not understand what you’ve been through, but I do know what it feels like to run.”
L: Well done, Kal.
Weighty Words
“The Everstorm,” Syl said. “Power has filled the holes in their souls, bridging the gaps. They didn’t just wake, Kaladin. They’ve been healed, Connection refounded, Identity restored. There’s more to this than we ever realized. Somehow when you conquered them, you stole their ability to change forms. You literally ripped off a piece of their souls and locked it away.”
L: Yikes. There’s some really heavy parallels we could make here to slavery in the real world, but we’ve already discussed this concept at length above, and in this case—unlike the real world—we’re talking literal as opposed to conceptual. Not only did the humans steal the Listeners’ culture and sense of self, they literally locked away an integral part of their souls.
A: Oathbringer shows us a lot more of things like Connection and Identity than the previous two books. These are concepts introduced in the Cosmere mostly through The Bands of Mourning and Mistborn: Secret History, so speaking as a Cosmere geek, it’s rather exciting to see them overtly applied to The Stormlight Archive. Speaking as a human being, though, it’s appalling to see more specifically what’s been done to an entire race. The truly bizarre part comes in realizing that these sympathetic people (yay!) were healed (yay!) by a storm sourced in Odium (ack!! Help! NO!!). It’s a little disorienting.
Doom & Destiny
“What about the king?” his captor said, speaking in a soft voice, but turning his head to direct the question at Kaladin.
Elhokar? What … Oh, right. The cards.
…
“When I watched men play, they used this card rarely. If it is so powerful, why delay?”
“If your king gets captured, you lose,” Kaladin said. “So you only play him if you’re desperate or if you are certain you can defend him. Half the times I’ve played, I left him in my barrack all game.”
A: I can’t help thinking this is a bit of foreshadowing for the Kholinar venture.
L: THE FORESHADOWING. IT HURTS.
A: Why didn’t Elhokar just stay in the barrack Urithiru??? ::sniffle:: But I’d probably never have cared about him as much if he had, so … there’s that, I guess.
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
Syl zipped past, and when Kaladin tried to catch her attention, she just laughed and flew higher on a burst of wind.
A: My first instinctive reaction was an “Oh, NO!!” followed immediately by “She’s pretending to be a windspren, right, in case anyone sees her?”
She was acting so carefree. Too carefree? Like she’d been back before they forged their bond?
A: Obviously it was Kaladin’s fear, too, that something had affected their bond. But it was just Syl being clever:
“It’s not that,” she said, speaking in a furious whisper. “I think parshmen might be able to see me. Some, at least. And that other spren is still here too. A higher spren, like me.”
A: Aside from “no one is like you, Syl!” and the further evidence (as if we needed it) that parshmen see more of the Cognitive realm than humans do, that statement is a bit worrisome. I mean, we sort of knew that it had to be, but now it’s confirmed that there are higher spren, sapient spren, that are not “on our side” for whatever that means.
“The spren is guiding them,” Kaladin said under his breath. “Syl, this spren must be…” “From him,” she whispered, wrapping her arms around herself and growing small—actively shrinking to about two-thirds her normal size. “Voidspren.”
A: ::shiver::
Quality Quotations
“If it means they can’t take us again?” she said. “Yes, I’d kill him. I won’t go back, Ton.”
* * *
You were never free while you ran; you felt as if the open sky and the endless fields were a torment. You could feel the pursuit following, and each morning you awoke expecting to find yourself surrounded.
Until one day you were right.
* * *
“You think I’d trust you?” the parshman finally said. “You will want us to be caught.”
I’m not sure I do,” Kaladin said, truthful.
Okay, that was a boatload. Next week we’ll be addressing chapter 18; it’s a long one in which Shallan does many foolish things and another beta reader is tuckerized. For now, let’s take the discussion to the comments!
Alice is enjoying the finally-turned-to-spring weather of Seattle in May—for however long it lasts. In the “for what it’s worth” department, the Storm Cellar facebook group has been growing, and is only 48 members away from reaching 1000. The admin team is looking at some possible celebration ideas, so keep an eye out! Oh, and join the group, if you haven’t already!
Lyndsey is so happy that spring has finally sprung here in New England. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or her website.
I’d like to see a full set of rules and cards for that game and play it. Maybe with some sweet SA art on the cards. Anyone from Dragonsteel reading this? Please take my money.
I’m glad Kaladin is taking the time to get to know these parshmen even knowing what happens later. It will be an important step for when Dalinar finally gets around to uniting everybody.
A bit of a digression from this chapter: what if “unite them” actually refers to the 16? Maybe the only way to end the threat of Odium is to reintegrate him with a balanced Adolnasium.
@soursavior
I like that idea of uniting the 16, but I feel like it’s a little too big, at least at the moment. Plus there’s the problem of several Shards being shattered already. I imagine that might be the endgame of the whole Cosmere, though. *rubs hands together in anticipation*
So any idea if the Parshmen breed like humans? There’s the whole unisex thing going on in the Parshendi, but I’m assuming slave form divides them back into the 2 sexes. So, er, did they give birth like a human?
Hmmmm, Austin@3 that is a good question. We know the Parshendi have mate form, but do the parshmen mate on their own or are they ordered by their owners?
The best statement, this week, is to say how many people struggle to understand over people’s plight up until they befriend someone having lived it. This is oh so unbelievably true: some hardships are just hard to grasp for those never having gone through them. Recognizing everything is not obvious for everyone is, IMHO, the first step towards understanding each other better.
So kudos for Kaladin here for making those first steps. It was sweet he thought of Rlain. I have just re-read the Rock chapter and, in it, I was hit at how casually and easily Renarin rejects Rlain, treats him exactly how he is complaining other people are treating him without even realizing it until Rock points it out to him. Oh him, he doesn’t matter. Kid, this is what everyone is always saying. Don’t you see? You aren’t the first nor the last one to feel you don’t belong. And so young Renarin is being served a great dose of humility by being reminded his life is not the center of the universe. Ah, storming Blackthorn kids.
I think it makes a nice parallel with Kaladin realizing Parshendis aren’t so different from himself. They aren’t the enemy and yet… they are. Well, the Fused are. Can they find a way to kill the Fused, kill those evil spirits for good, thus freeing the Parshendis from them. Built a new world together where humans and Parshendis will live side-by-side?
Rlain is supposed to have a big role in future books, we can guess what it will be, but how will he solved it? And will Queen Jasnah even listen?
I am thinking unite them means uniting humans and Parshendis. They are never going to get rid of the Desolation until they work together to destroy the Fused. Another oathpact wouldn’t work, the new Heralds would be as the old ones did. Unless they manage to get 10 people who will never break no matter what and well, even Taln, eventually, broke.
I still feel this should have been the flashback to Dalinar meeting Evi for the first time. Breaking the flow from the end of last chapter was awkward.
@3 the Listeners aren’t unisex. They have 4 official genders: male and female in mateform and malen and femalen in all other forms. The secondary sexual characteristics are much reduced outside of mateform which made it difficult for Alethi to tell the difference in combat, but they seem to always be able to tell amongst themselves. Even this chapter recap refers to a daughter, a father, and a mother.
As to how they gestate and give birth, I suspect it is mammalian style based on the very strong hints that Horneaters, Herdazians, and some Veden have mixed human and parsh heritage. It would be difficult (not impossible in a world with magic) for them to crossbreed if they were totally different.
@7 – So do malen/femalen still have the equipment? I know they don’t have sexual urges or mate while not in mateform. Do they have the need to use the privy? In that case, they probably would still have the organs for that function.
@8 As far as I can remember, the only person we explicitly know needs to do bathroom stuff is Adolin. I assume it’s more widespread because Shallan thought to ask him about it and Dalinar carved that huge latrine trench, both of which would be weird if no one else did it. That said, I assume Listeners have waste and the need to remove it from their bodies and I very much doubt that Sanderson will ever go into explicit detail about any character’s genitals so you can use whatever head canon you want without ever being contradicted by the text.
Personally I suspect a nude malen would look pretty similar to a nude male who was just swimming in very cold water, but it may be more extreme than that.
@9
“I was in the pool! I was in the pool!” Seinfeld anyone?
How does Kaladin know how old the child is? He seems to have hardly met any parsh children before.
As for why Elhokar doesn’t just stay in the “barracks”, Kaladin has just explained that: you play your King when the situation is desperate.
The Listeners have specialized forms, but just because a form is sub-optimal for a purpose doesn’t mean it’s incapable. Dull/Slaveform are (obviously) mating capable, because otherwise the race would have been long extinct thanks to the twin severings (of the parsh, and self-inflicted(?) from Odium). Some forms may be more truly “neuter” but these base ones at least are not.
These chapters are great for ‘humanizing’ the enemy, though Sanderson seems to alternate between giving them agency and agendas and making them unwitting pawns/threats.
@10 yeeeeeeeeeeesssssss
@10 I was thinking about George as I wrote it. Nice catch.
@13 you made a good point. I was probably painting with too broad a brush when I said only mateform were male and female. Clearly slaveform is and presumably dullform would be too in order to be able to pass as slaveform. I wonder if Brandon and/or Peter have a full list of which forms use which pair of genders. Given the broad spectrum of human gender expression and the close relationship between the cognitive realm and form that parsh have, I wonder if some individuals are male where others would be malen.
Sounds like a good question to ask Brandon. Which forms are male/female and malen/femalen? Are all forms biologically able to mate if forced? If not, do malen/femalen lack the necessary sexual organs?
@16 Already asked. From /r/books AMA 2015 (March 12, 2015)
There’s also a bit from Peter on your second part General Twitter 2016 (Jan. 1, 2016)
@6 I dunno, I kind of like when Brandon does that! Builds all the suspense. And when I first read it I think I appreciated a little time to digest the news ;) although this may or may not have lead me to skim read Kaladin’s chapter a bit!
People here are so detailed – I always assumed the forms were specializations, so it is nice to see that that has been confirmed. Not to be too detailed on anatomy, but let’s not forget that women do not use their reproductive parts for using the restroom. Also, if they do have menstrual cycles during mateform, it would imply to me that they must have it during slaveform as well since a uterine lining would be required to sustain the pregnancy. Perhaps it occurs less often (this would give some context to the quote that mentions selling his partner as “good breeding stock” – maybe Parshendi in slaveform cannot give birth as frequently or as easily as Parshendi in mateform). This whole chapter just makes me so sad. You see these people who have been unbroken, “wake up” to feel pain and anger and frustration at being used and enslaved by humans, only to essentially turn around and me used and enslaved by the Fused.
@10
I love Seinfeld.
@6 I have a love hate relationship with that kind of cliff hanger. And like @18, I probably skimmed this chapter the first time or flipped through to find the next Dalinar flashback so I knew how long the wait would be.
I really like how Kaladin gets to see a more broad perspective. It helps (though temporarily hurts too) to have him see the bigger picture. One thing I like about the online communities I participate in is being able to know people with very different life experiences. I learn a lot from all of you.
But why did Elhokar have to go to Kolinar? And why this foreshadowing that we totally didn’t get the first time but now it’s so blatant?
@17 – Thanks for the answers! I guess I’m left wondering what the difference is between male/female and malen/femalen and when do those terms apply.
Ok, I combed through the WoB database and found this (if anyone is interested in this topic like I am lol):
Not sure what Brandon means by “neuter” here but the malen and femalen forms are completely asexual. So they could still have the proper organs but just will not experience any sexual feelings (depending on what “neuter” means in his answer). There’s not a list of what forms are malen/femalen, but we know it’s not mateform and slaveform. I think warform is definitely malen/femalen.
I love the way this chapter confronts the White Alethi Savior trope. Some of the best writing in the book.
@22 Austin
Neuter generally means without gender. In this context, I’m guessing that the underlying gender is made to be irrelevant. So, for instance, in Warform there are no external differences between genders and any internal ones (such as menstruation) would be turned off/neutralized.
“So you only play him if you’re desperate or if you are certain you can defend him.”
Dammit, Kaladin.
And I respectfully disagree with the Parshman who says Kaladin has no idea how he feels. In TWoK, the years of slavery, and then finally Bridge Four, ground Kaladin down and into depression until he was about to kill himself, if not for Syl’s intervention. It may not be a literal taking of the mind, but there wasn’t much of Kaladin left at that point. His sense of self and identity were as lost as that of the parshman’s.
There are some external differences between malen & femalen in warform – the malen have beards, and the femalen have breasts, albeit small ones. So while they are asexual, they aren’t exactly neuter. Logically (to go along with the WoB), of course mateform can’t be the only form capable of reproducing; both the slaveform parshmen and the dullform listeners carried on for many generations. It would be at least 12 centuries for the slaveform, and an unknown length of time for the listeners – whatever time lapsed from when they all went into dullform to escape the Voidspren, to whenever they eventually rediscovered mateform. Eshonai implies that it was a LONG time.
I love this chapter more than I should. The Parsh are so unhappy and with so much reason, but it’s wonderful to see them…not humanized, but people-ized…for the protagonist. Realistically, he still doesn’t and can’t understand their experiences or vice versa, but compassion doesn’t require perfect empathy as much as willingness to listen and learn.
I think it’s mentioned somewhere in an Eshonai chapter of WoR that Parshendi can breed outside of mateform, though have more difficulty doing so. But I only read it once, two years ago, so am not sure.
Great point about rockbuds possibly being waterproof to keep water in, not out, though I expect waterlogged seeds are also bad for them.
Did the spren that is leading the group change? Because, either in this chapter or the one before, Syl referred to the spren as a he, which Yixli is not.
@Gaz, #25:
I think Kaladin is quite correctly choosing not to play “more pitiful life than thou” games with the healed Parshmen. Whatever their pasts, right now Kaladin is enormously better off than they are and he’s choosing to be supportive and helpful instead of arguing–which is, if you think about it, his way unless someone is a confirmed enemy like Amaram.
The KR/squire relationship remind me of the Jedi Knight/padwan relationship in Star Wars.
As someone who is not a Cosmere geek (to quote Alice), would someone explain the concepts of Connection and Identity as used in the Cosmere?
Alice: I think that for his own personal character growth, Elhokar had to go to Kholinar. It was what he saw and experienced in the city that lead him toward the steps of starting the first Oath (that is before Moash ran him through). To me, the key was Elhokar’s confronting Aesudan, seeing how corrupt (from the influence of Odium and/or the Unmade she became) and dying in an attempt to save Gavinor.
Brandon has some nice symmetry. Shallan gets run through; however, as she is can Investiture Stormlight, she survives. Elhokar gets run through; however, because he has yet to say the first Oath, he does not survive.
I doubt we have seen the last of Vai after OB. I am 50/50 as whether we see her in the next two books or Vai becomes more important in books 6-10. Call me naïve, but I think of all of these Parshman who interact with Kaladin, I think Vai will be the one to remember that not all humans are evil. Further, Vai will recognize that the Regal and Fused are not truly looking out for the Singers best interests.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Gepeto @5: What in the text makes you think that Jasnah would not listen to Rlain? Jasnah is not so closed minded, she will not listen to ideas that may be different from her thinking. One may need to present her with a compelling argument, but I believe she is open minded. When Jasnah first met Shallan (where King T’s granddaughter was trapped after the cave-in, she accepted Shallan’s unusual suggestion of determining the thickness of the rocks (Shallan suggested relying plans that were already prepared rather than re-calculating everything). Although originally dismissive of art, over time she came around on its practicality based on Shallan’s talents.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Agreeing with @AndrewHB, while I don’t find Jasnah a convincing atheist she is a convincing scholar. This means that she tends to have a strong opinion on almost any topic, but is willing to be persuaded by sufficiently-strong evidence.
@30 Identity is easy enough. It’s like a spiritual serial code on everything in existence that tells the world what it is. It’s the reason feruchemists’ metal minds know who they belong to by default.
Connection is more sorr of your relationship to people and places. Like a cultural/geographic version of identity. When Dalinar learns to speak the language of the Lift country (blanking on the name at the moment) he’s used connection to the person he touched to simulate a belonging that would come with understanding how to communicate with the local people.
@31: I have just read the chapter where Jasnah and Kaladin hit it off in a negative way as he argues the Parshendis are not the enemy and needs to be spared.
Jasnah is ruled by cold-logic, not empathy. She is not heartless, but she will apply the solution which gives mankind the stronger chance of survival. She will not compromise over the Parshendis, not unless the compromise is a workable solution. So far, no one has provided one.
Jasnah also knows the truth about the Voidbringers and yet she advocates whipping the Parshendis out might be the best solution. Agreed, she doesn’t readily go for it, but she voices it out. Her final solution was to find the Heralds, then kill them in hope sending them back to Damnation would stop the Desolation.
Thus, it isn’t Jasnah will not listened nor admit when she is wrong: she will. She however isn’t going to make decisions which are ruled by empathy. She isn’t going to spontaneously take the side of the Parshendis, like Kaladin does, if it means diminishing mankind chances of survival.
She will go by a solution, which isn’t hers, which allows both men and Parshendis to live together, in peace, but not unless this solution is proven to be the ultimate best, the most logical.
Hence, what I meant when I said Queen Jasnah may not listen is precisely this. Queen Jasnah will take whichever decision the greatest logic dictates and this decision may not be the one heart would make. It is why I have raised concerns over her as Queen: she is undoubtly highly qualified for it, but she does have a blind spot. She could end up making a very disastrous decision on the moral stand-point, on the basis it is the most logical. She would not wipe out humans to seek unity as Taravangian did, but she may decide it is best to wipe out the Parshendis to avoid the transformation.
@34 Gepeto
I’ll just copy paste the post I sent you the last time we discussed Jasnah as it covers everything you just reached in the book, ahead of our current re-read and current chapter we are discussing. I look forward to discussing it further with you when we reach that chapter in this re-read! :)
@90 Gepeto
Thank you. That is an interesting question regarding would Jasnah have grown up as a man have ended up like Gavilar. I think finding out what caused her to be in a dark room screaming and feeling betrayed by her loved ones would play a large part in potentially answering this. For instance if what happened involved the Vorin religion and her father, I could see Jasnah even as a man separating herself and following a similar path that she did as a woman. She would be divorcing herself from the main stream society that harmed her so much. It could be even more difficult for her as a man, as she would be potentially be pursuing scholarship, which is a feminine art, and be ostracized from the only group where that would be acceptable, the religious Ardents. So I think if the inciting incident was caused as I posited, I could see Jasnah taking the same path, but having to overcome possibly additional hurdles.
I see what you are saying regarding Jasnah, and respect your opinion. Some of your points I view a little differently. True there are instances with Navani and others where she comes off as intellectually pushy, but there are also instances with Taravangian, Dalinar, and Shallan where she defers to others, listens to their advice, or revises her original outlook/plan based on new info. Very true she is not infallible. Far from it. But I feel she does have a nice balance that can be quite the asset to a ruler.
Regarding Kaladin, if you are referring to the scene where they are meeting regarding the parshendi there are a few things regarding that. First, Kaladin instigated the shouting to which she responded calmly at first but eventually it did escalate. Second, the order went something like this
1 Kaladin said can’t we just not fight them, while not offering a realistic alternative during a war counsel
2 Jasnah pointed out that the parshendi get possessed by the fused, so regardless their inclination, at any time they could become a hostile combatant
3 Jasnah then points out if they are going to preserve the parshendi (in response to Kaladin’s upset over fighting them she is offering solutions where they aren’t fought), they need to end the function that causes the fused to return and possess the parshendi
4 Jasnah reasons that the heralds returning to damnation is the way it was done in the past. At this point none of the characters know that this potentially would not work. She suggests then asking the heralds to return, or baring that kill them with the aim of buying them some time
5 Kaladin calls her insane, and again offers no alternatives
6 The discussion between Kaladin and Jasnah devolves
Now, I readily admit, letting the discussion devolve in that way is a poor showing for Jasnah, but I would also point out that it is a poor showing of Kaladin who is a soldier, and a poor showing of Dalinar who is leading the meeting. Kaladin should have been more professional and offered tactical options. Instead he was understandably upset about what he experienced and acted emotionally. The correct thing to do, would be provide the intel, and then excuse himself from the meeting, as he was emotionally unfit to contribute. This does not mean it should be emotionless, but frankly it was a war counsel that decides the fates of countless people. Closing your eyes and just hoping everyone will be nice to each other is not a solution nor appropriate. Information must be provided, examined, and discussed. Kaladin kept shutting the discussion down. Dalinar did listen to Kaladin, but also pointed out about being realistic, and he should not have allowed the discussion to devolve as much as it did as leader of the meeting. So no one truly came out of that meeting smelling of roses. Jasnah just tends to get a bad rap for it (in general, not specifically from you, nor am I saying you were accusing her of such) because she brought forward the hard options that no one liked, but had to be discussed. I had been saving my thoughts on this scene till we had reached it but since it got brought up earlier, I couldn’t resist lol
So in summation, I can see how Jasnah could walk many paths as you say, just in my opinion I feel she has the characteristics and resources to do the best with what she has in an unenviable position. Leading a nation during the end of the world.
@34 “She however isn’t going to make decisions which are ruled by empathy.”
(Spares Renarin)
#34 and #35 @@@@@ Gepeto and @@@@@ scath – I don’t want to be in the middle of your discussion re: Jasnah but I would to call your attention to the end of WoR when Jasnah told Hoid that what she worked so hard to find out about the Voidbringers and the Desolation while she was in Shadesmar might not hold water anymore. She told Hoid that after Hoid updated her what had been happening while she was gone.
That said, Jasnah might know a lot but her knowledge might be outdated or no longer as comprehensive as assumed.
As for Rlain and Jasnah communicating, I don’t want to weigh on that because I don’t have enough data /info to make any.
Gepeto and Scath – What I’m saying might be irrelevant to your discussion *winks*
@37 sheilagh
Jasnah’s Intel is definitely out of date as the everstorm is purely new. No one has seen it before. Not the stormfather, not hoid, no one. So when you are researching something, you work from what you know, test, remove what doesn’t work and test some more. So what they know so far at that point is how the fused worked prior. In order to preserve the parshendi like kaladin wants, they need to find a way to stop the fused from possessing them. Heralds know a lot about the history of the conflict so locating and talking to them is a good first step. Because they don’t know anything about the everstorm, there is at the time of the conversation, nothing saying definitively it wouldn’t work. Jasnah first suggests to talk to the heralds and ask them to return voluntarily, but given that as kaladin eloquently put, they are insane and cowards, the alternative is to kill them.
@35 Scath: Yes, I have finally made it to this chapter and beyond. I am very unsure about Jasnah’s dark room, why it happens and what it means. I feel we are lacking so much information right now, it is nearly impossible to make a guess. I have seen readers argued perhaps she was suffering from one mental illness or another. My gut feeling is it involved Gavilar. I didn’t feel she was very warm towards him, during her prologue back in WoR. I can’t say what it might have been yet, but this would be my guess. How it influenced her later is also hard to say.
This being said, does Jasnah have enough of a balance to be a good ruler? I think there is one speculative narrative where she does, but I also think there is another one where she doesn’t. Just like Elhokar could have gone bad, but instead ended up good. Jasnah, I feel, has similar potential. What kind of Queen she will be, I cannot say, but I am currently trying to keep my options open. One of them is Jasnah’s weaknesses do cause trouble and these weaknesses would be her difficulty into factoring in empathy when time comes for decision making.
On the matter of the Kaladin/Jasnah’s discussion, I agree Kaladin wasn’t offering any alternate avenue. I however think his purpose wasn’t to offer one, he admits he doesn’t know the answer. His purpose seemed to be to raise awareness towards the Parshendi’s situation, to have others factor them in. Jasnah however wasn’t being very responsive. She admitted the individual Parshendis may not be bad people, but they were the vessels for the evil spirit. It isn’t she wouldn’t listen to an alternate solution, none was suggested, but I somehow do not think she would genuinely be looking for one. In other words, I do not feel Queen Jasnah would go for a more emphatic solution unless it is proven to her it also is the most logical. And I fear there may not be the time for this.
Kaladin sure didn’t behave like a proper soldier, but honestly, he never really did. When Kaladin cares about something or someone, he just won’t let it go. He developed a kinship with the Parshendis and this was such a revelation he just couldn’t ignore it. Also, well, Jasnah’s solution were very drastic. She sure didn’t factor in… the Parshendis being people.
So yeah, no one really offered a decent solution, but again I didn’t feel Kaladin’s purpose was to offer one. I think it was more to say: “Hey guys, the Parshendis are people too, can we consider this into our decision making”.
This is how I read it, but yeah, I agree no one really reacted well in there. Kaladin was annoyed, Jasnah got unnerved and Dalinar did nothing.
I don’t disagree Jasnah has a good set of qualities, I just think she also has weaknesses. They all do. So how are her weaknesses going to influence her decision-making?
@36: I read this one differently. Jasnah has an emotional connection to Renarin. She loves him, perhaps like a sibling, perhaps more even. This love she had is what allows her to show empathy. She however has no such connection with the Parshendis.
@37: Well, Jasnah’s knowledge may be updated but she is likely to get an updated one. What I am concerned about is her weaknesses, as an individual, and how they are going to play into the narrative. Kaladin’s weakness which we saw the beginning of, in this chapter, caused Elhokar’s death. What will Jasnah’s do?
@Gepeto, you wrote “She however has no such connection with the Parshendis.”
How do you think our “human” protagonists will react when they find out that Horneaters and Herdazians (and thus, Shallan) are part-Singer? How will Nale react–that makes (by his weird logic) the two H-ethnicities partly native, and thus their laws would maybe be legit where the Alethi law would not?
@40: I do not know. I only meant to say Jasnah doesn’t have a similar emotional connection to the Parshendis as the one she has with Renarin which allowed her to be merciful. I wonder if without this connection she will be able to grow emphatic enough, fast enough.
I do not know how Nale will rationalize it either. I am unsure how the various enemy factions will ally themselves one with another. The Iriali, the Skybreakers, the Fused and should we add Ialai and what remains of her princedom too? Will they form an opposing coalition or will each faction try to steer the blanket more towards their own side of things?
Ehlokar had to go to Kholinar because he recognized that he had to either step up as a leader or remove himself as an obstacle in the path of somebody qualified to lead. He already failed at leading politically from the rear because instead of forging the Highprinces and their armies into a single force he mostly let them go their own ways for 6 years, losing their respect in the process. As we were shown in the beginning of WoK he only had the little control that he did over them due to the ceaseless behind-the scenes work of Dalinar and Sadeas, which later led to the former seizing power of the crown and the latter turning against Kholins and almost sparking a civil war.
After such a fiasco Ehlokar’s only chance for regaining respect of his vassals and authority over them was to achieve a spectacular success in leadership from the front. So he was very much in a “do or die” situation, since he was also the one who correctly recognized that Dalinar couldn’t concurrently prop him and become the international leader and coordinator that he needed to be to battle the Desolation.
Gepeto:
But didn’t what happened at Thaylenah – namely Odium demonstrating that humans can also be bound to his spren, pretty much render Jasnah’s whole premise re: parsh moot? She now knows that little/nothing would be solved even if the singers could be eradicated, and as a highly rational person that she is, would be looking for something else. Ditto the Heralds – due to the Stormfather’s revelations, she now knows that it would be worse than useless to kill them, as they have to be willing to do their part. Not to mention that the dagger is a complete game-changer.
Personally, I believe that a number of the Heralds would eventually agree to return to Braize, allowing for the time-skip between the 2 pentologies, but they’ll all be eventually killed for good with the dagger(s) and that’s what will kick off the second sub-series.
I absolutely do think that Jasnah’s personality short-comings are going to cause problems for her rule that would be challenging to overcome, but then, that’s always the case, isn’t it? Nobody is perfect.
Carl @40:
But Nale already knows all there is to know about the Horneaters, Herdazians and the Listeners. For some reason that must make sense to his disturbed mind, he doesn’t consider any of them to be the real masters of Roshar, whose laws have to be obeyed.
When this chapter came out I really enjoyed how it tackled the problem of empathy, privelege, etc. Of course, now it’s also just a cruel setup for what’s to come :(
Regarding Parshendi gender and forms – I think it’s also important to remember that slaveform isn’t really a ‘form’ at all – but the absence of form. So it’s kind of interesting to me that Parshendi in slaveform do appear to be female/male and have all of the same ‘functions’ (although probably without the heightened drive that would characterize mateform), including menstruation. I would also be interested in knowing specifically which forms use male/female and which use malen/femalen.
I was definitely a bit put off by Jasnah in the upcoming scenes being discussed – she definitely has that air of ruthless pragmatism. But, her scene with Renarin does give me some hope that she has it in her to realize there are other things to take into account besides a purely utilitarian logic. At the very least I think we can be confident she won’t be bound by prejudices/traditions.
@42: I tend to agree with you on Elhokar: it is either he did something outstanding or he allowed himself to sink into the background. He was a poor king, he never had any authority and lived in the shadows of Dalinar Kholin. He would have never moved away from it unless he did something spectacular. Mind, I do think Adolin wouldn’t have fared much better. He too would have deferred too much to Dalinar, he worships him too much and he thinks of him as a God, though he would have probably manage a stronger leadership.
So Elhokar, I for one am very pleased he chose to go to Kholinar. I also liked he died for it. For those who may have read my posts on Elhokar will remember I could never find him a purpose into the narrative. Him learning to be a good king never seemed to fit within the existing narrative. His progression as a Radiant also didn’t seem like it fitted either: his voice was not unique enough. I honestly did not see where Elhokar’s character could go apart from “evil” or “sacrificial lamb”. Turns out he end up somewhere in between.
I sincerely believe, by dying as he did, while rescuing his son, Elhokar earned the sympathy capital he would have never gotten otherwise. I sincerely believe any other ending wouldn’t have gotten Elhokar nearly half of the support he is getting how. His death was a powerful moment which was not wasted into the narrative. Hence, I am very pleased he went to Kholinar. Yes, he died, but his death served his character best, IMHO.
On Jasnah: Yes, her data is not invalid and yes we haven’t seen her react to it nor adjust it. I do however think her lack of empathy, which is highlighted by both Pattern and Ivory (in his case, he praised it) could form a weakness which will cause her hardships. Unfortunately, since she is Queen, her mistakes might bear stronger consequences than when Kaladin/Shallan screw up.
She is not different than others: she has her own demons to deal with. She does mention how the one time she did not rely on her brain, things went wrong. I am curious about what happened.
Still, my line of thoughts is I will not take for granted Jasnah will be a good Queen. It may be she will: I do think there is a very strong rational where she is. I however do think there is a rational where her weaknesses have dire consequences. Which one Brandon will write, I do not know, but I could see it go both ways. Lately, I started thinking it would have been better if Adolin had been king: he has no weaknesses which could cause issues. He is basically, imperturbable.
On my re-read: I need to spare a few words right now to state how much I love Skar. I know, I know, most readers loves Rock, Rlain and Lopen the most, but for me, it was Skar who wins it all. His talk with Lyn was beautiful. I need to emphasis how he told her as long as she keeps on trying, then there is hope. Hope only dies when you stop trying.
Flashback to 10 years old me.
I failed my swimming class for the fourth time in row. I was sad, I was mad, all I could think off was to give up and to never try again. Why would I? I always failed. Then, one little girl, younger than I was, saw me probably cry in the changing room. She told me what remains, to this day, one of the greatest lesson life ever taught me.
If you give up now, one thing is certain: you will never pass your level.
And there. I tried again and I passed. End of story. Except I learned something: if you want something, then you have to keep trying, no matter how many times you fail because if you stop trying, this is when you admit you will never reach your goal.
It served me right later in my life and Skar told Lyn to do exactly this.
I love Skar. I just had to say it even if we won’t get there until many more weeks.
Every leader, monarchs especially, have weaknesses. Kaladin (for this narrative at least) comes as close to perfection in leadership ability that I’ve ever seen written and he has weaknesses. The key to being a great leader lies in recognition of your weaknesses in order to minimize their impact while doing your best to emphasize your strengths. I’m willing to take for granted that Jasnah’s floor in terms of monarchy is a good queen. Because of her brilliance her ceiling is The Greatest Queen. I say that because she is the most self aware person among the main cast in SA. She is well aware of her weaknesses and has the training to know how to minimize them. Very few things will blindside her and she possesses the clarity of thought and coolness under pressure to stay the course when others panic. Just for example, can you imagine Jasnah deferring to Dalinar to such an extent that she erodes her power base and has to go on an insane mission to try and regain capital? Can you imagine her letting Sadeas off the hook after the 4 on 1 duel? Can you imagine her sitting still while her highprinces nearly openly defied her? I cannot imagine Jasnah making half the mistakes her brother made in just the 2-3 years book time since we’ve met the Kholins. Only time will tell as to whether she’ll be an amazing Queen, but I’m confident that the worst she’d be is good.
@45: I do not expect Jasnah to make the same mistakes as Elhokar, but I expect her to make different ones.
No leader is ever perfect: Kaladin made mistakes, he couldn’t face adversity in OB, he failed to lead those he had sworn to protect to safety. It was a nice arc for his character and I loved reading it, but it did highlight his short-comings in terms of leadership.
Dalinar also had his short-comings: he doesn’t know how to command respect outside the battlefield. Also, he’s too trusting and wanted to believe Sadeas was his friend: it blind sighted him to his upcoming betrayal.
Only Adolin, so far, hasn’t failed as a leader, picking up the broken bits left by Kaladin and ushering them to safety. I don’t know if Brandon plans to make him fail, or not, but I have a hard figuring it may happen.
Jasnah however…
I certainly expect Jasnah to have her own short-comings: she is a Radiant. Radiants all fail multiple times before they get it right, hence I expect her… to fail in one way or another.
Granted, she could also turn into a magnificent leader: there is potential here. I expect she will do better than Elhokar but, as I said, I want to keep my options open here. I like to consider both avenues, for the moment and see which way Brandon will steer her narrative.
@39 Gepeto
At the end of the day we all have our faults. No one is perfect. The question is can we over come them? Do we have the wherewithal or desire to overcome them? In that post and a prior one I listed all the instances where when Jasnah makes a mistake, she takes a step back, admits it, and tries to do better. I also included the instances where she worked quite well with disparate groups that normally do not work together, nor agree with her views. What this comes down to is our each own personal opinion on the character. I respect your view and pretty much all I think we can do is RAFO.
I guess this is another situation of differing perspectives. I took Jasnah coming up in various solutions, and points that need to be researched further as her actively looking for various solutions. That reads to me as willingness to work with whatever information or chances they have which would lead to if Rlain showed up with ways of preventing the parshendi from being possessed, or gathering them to rebel, Jasnah would fully support it. But again that is my own reading of the character fully acknowledging she is human and can make mistakes. I think Alethkar needs a strong ruler that the other highprinces would listen to, and the other foreign leaders would respect which Dalinar, Adolin and Shallan all agree is Jasnah. I think all we can do on that is RAFO.
The desolation is a drastic situation. It is the literal extinction of the human race. It got to the point where they came so frequently that humanity actually regressed in their technological stage. That is what Jasnah is trying to stress. You cannot do half measures here. Ok, you want to preserve the parshendi? Then considering they get possessed and switch sides against their will, just hoping to have a chat won’t solve that. We need more. We need real research, plans, and goals. The desolation means the end of everything for them. Elsecallers prime ideals are Wisdom and Caring. Jasnah is caring for her people. For her loved ones. For the human race. She has been stressing about this since before Way of Kings. She wouldn’t be a good ruler if she didn’t consider every possibility, and every solution on its merits. But again this comes down to our personal views on the character. Guess RAFO.
I feel Renarin showed us that Jasnah is caring, the second Ideal of the elsecallers. Dalinar, Shallan, and I feel a third person (though I cannot recall whether it was Adolin or Navani), all comment on though Jasnah has a stern exterior, she is actually very loving and caring. Now you have commented it is because she is emotionally connected to these people. But consider this. Jasnah knew for a while that the parshmen were the voidbringers, but when she showed Shallan her research, she didn’t say her problem was convincing the lighteyes to execute them, it was to convince them to let them go. If Jasnah was like Taravangian, she would have been looking into ways to wipe out all parshendi prior to them returning as voidbringers. Instead she was researching to prevent the return. But again that is how I read the character vs how you read the character. We all have flaws so anything could really happen. She could be an amazing ruler, do everything right, and still fail because circumstances are greater than what any person could control. But I guess we will RAFO
@40 Carl
I think one possible reaction is realizing at some point, some how humans and parshendi got along enough to breed true two entire races. That if they were able to co-exist once, that there is a chance they could co-exist again and to try and find out what common ground lead to that in an attempt to make it happen again. I think the existence of the Herdazians and Horneaters could be a beacon of hope. As to Nale, I think it will depend on how he chooses to see it. After all you could say the humans had a legal claim to the planet via easement. The fused were locked away, and the only sapient parshendi left were off by themselves and made no claim to the rest of the planet. This carried on for centuries. I would be curious if there was a legal standing for easement on Roshar and if so what is the duration. How long does one have to have access to a property without contest before it is reverted to their ownship? I would hazard a few centuries would cover that handily. But Nale chose not to consider that. Considering he was around while the Herdazians and Horneaters were around, I do not think it would come into consideration.
@42 Isilel
I agree that by the end of the book, our main group would know that the old way will not solve the issue, so Jasnah would not pursue it and would be open for other options. I also agree that the dagger(s) are also a huge game changer as it could potentially be used against the fused once they understand the function of it. I do feel that the heralds will still play a part in some way for the simple reason that Odium seems to be worried about them enough to go through the trouble of killing them permanently.
@43 Lisamarie
I do not know regarding the other forms, but I do recall that warform at least definitely uses malen and femalen as Eshonai referred to them as such at numerous times.
@44 Gepeto
Regarding Ivory highlighting Jasnah’s logical part of her, she was disturbed that those comments. That denotes to me self reflection. Also consider that as each radiant advances they grow regarding their prime ideals. Kaladin grows with protecting and leading, Shallan with creativity and honesty, Lift with loving and healing, Renarin with learning and giving. So Jasnah is wisdom and caring. It is literally half the very order she is a part of. So all these characters hold both these traits, and as they advance through their radiancy, they grow further in those traits. Also consider that theoretically Jasnah already has her shardplate. If this is true, then she is potentially very far along in her radiancy and personal growth. Everyone has faults, it is how you overcome them, and work with them that matters. All I have seen of Jasnah shows me that she faces her faults, and seeks to do better. But again personal reading, guess all that’s left is to RAFO.
@45 EvilMonkey
I agree on all points
@46 Gepeto
I think the thing is we do all agree that Jasnah has faults, and can make mistakes. No one is immune. Just some think based on what we have seen of her, she will overcome those problems, while some think she will not or they will become a bigger issue. Which is why I can’t help but keep coming back to RAFO. We don’t know what kind of issues Jasnah will have to face with the end of the world. We don’t know the extent of the resources she will have nor the choices she will have to make with them. I personally feel she will do well, as the main narrative focuses on Venli, Szeth, Dalinar, Kaladin, and Shallan. Once we reach the back half, I think we will delve more into Jasnah, her past, and how that past brought her to the present day. But I guess we will RAFO.
When did we learn that Shallan and the Horneaters and Herdazians are part Parshendi?
@48 Bonanne
It is implied in the books and confirmed via WoB. The fact that horneaters can see into the cognitive, and eat shells with their teeth, while Herdazians have the crystalline finger nails hints. Just like the Natatanans (know i butchered that), are part aimian due to their blue skin.
Oh that line about losing the king means you just lost the game: except, when they lost Elhokar, they just replaced him. Elhokar was completely replaceable. It was really Dalinar who replaced his own brother, Elhokar was just along for the ride until right at the end.
Speaking of the ancestry of various peoples on Roshar, a spoiler follows. I’m not going to white it out, so I’ll drop something else in first–if you want to skip down past the spoiler, don’t read past the next paragraph.
Speaking of the game-changing dagger: it’s another tit-for-tat or ketek-style “rhyme”. It’s a mirror of Nightblood, which by WoB works by destroying the Soulweb of what it strikes. I would bet money that a Fused (or Herald) struck by it can’t return. And like the dagger apparently does, it absorbs the energy of what it kills.
Now the spoiler: you know how the Herdazians and Horneaters are part-Singer and the Natan peoples part-Aimian? The Iriali are by WoB originally Worldhoppers from a world other than Ashyn (where the “humans” of Roshar mostly come from). From the name, they’re presumably originally Ire–a secret society of Worldhoppers originating on Sel (the world of Elantris). And Renarin and Adolin are part-Iriali. (Brandon didn’t confirm that they’re from Sel or the Ire, that’s my guess based on the name.)
@51 Carl
Interesting parallel with the IRE and the Iri. Could very well be. The prevailing theory I have seen is that they are from Nalthis because of the hair. So far Brandon has been very close lipped on where they were from before Roshar. He does seem to imply they have migrated through multiple planets, so they could even have visited both
On a different topic, my copy of Arcanum Unbounded finally arrived today. I was looking at the star map and noticed two interesting things about the Roshar system:
1. It is in the constellation of the swordsman (or shardbearer, since I don’t see an actual name).
2. The location of Roshar in the system is as the Achilles’ Heel.
@53 Cool observation. I wonder what it might mean.
A thought about Jasnah is it possible that like Renarin she is on the autistic spectrum? Perhaps closer to where Steris is? Given the genetic condition for Autism and Asperger’s it could even run in the Kholin family, showing up from time to time. IF this IS the case with Jasnah it COULD potentially explain a LOT. In case I will talk about this more when we get to the scene that has been brought up.
#55, I wouldn’t expect Jasnah to be on the autism spectrum for meta-narrative reasons. She’s already an atheistic, somewhat psychopathic superscholar. I can’t see Sanderson giving her even more distinguishing characteristics.
@56 From people on the outside, Asperger’s which is now grouped is with high-functioning autism often LOOKS like sociopathy when in reality it’s more the opposite. To quote the useful notes page on TVTropes “Just because they have difficulty understanding other people’s emotional states doesn’t mean they don’t care. In fact, scientific evidence suggests that autistic people generally have higher than average empathy towards people they notice are in pain. …Back in the days before Asperger’s Syndrome and autism were known disorders, those who fell into the autism spectrum were often mistaken for sociopaths due to lack of outward emotions/displaying inappropriate emotions (e.g. John Elder Robison was chided for smiling when he heard of the death of another child when in fact he was relieved that it hadn’t been him that died). This can obviously create a bit of a problem; humans are easily put off by weird asocial behavior and may think “sociopath” instead of “Aspergers.”
Basically the two disorders are usually polar opposites in this particular respect. People with Asperger’s are generally more compassionate and get distressed by other people’s pain, but have problems showing it in a natural manner. Most have a strong conscience. And an inability to tell a convincing lie to save their life is another common trait. The favored popular-culture consummate liar sociopath on the other hand tends to systematically misdirect, manipulate, fake caring mannerisms, etc, without any outward minor twitch/sign that they are doing so, or get intensely sadistic.
As in the case of Dexter Morgan in the original book. People with Asperger’s do have emotions, but the way they feel/express them are very different than everyone else. It’s as if their feelings are running in Linux (or one of its many, many derivatives) while everyone else is running Windows or Mac OS X. Because of this, things get askew during the translation, sometimes funny, other times, horrible (see the John Elder example above.)”
This is why I meant it could explain a lot. There is an entire thread on the 17th shard that brought up this possibility.
Does this make sense?
@57 – this is so interesting to me and resonating with me right now. My older son is diagnosed as a high functioning autistic (I guess Asperger’s isn’t used diagnostically anymore) and in one of his recent evaluations it was mentioned that he was outside the norm on one test because he too frequently proposed solutions that ‘put other peoples’ perspectives ahead of his own’ (in other words, he wasn’t good at advocating for himself), but in another test he was unable to give support during situations that didn’t line up with his own feelings (ie, in a hypothetical situation with a friend that had ugly glasses he said he would say, “I kind of like your glasses and I kind of don’t” which was the wrong answer, lol.
I have definitely noticed that while he certainly has some issues with cues, navigating a social dynamic, etc, he’s an incredibly sensitive and affectionate child, very cognizant of/attracted to beauty and music and VERY into the rules and also very honest and definitely doesn’t understand the way in social situations the literal truth may be elided at times.
@Lisamarie As someone with Asperger’s I recommend checkout the ENTIRE useful Notes TVTropes page on Asperger’s Syndrome. I only brought up the parts of the discussion that might be relevant here for talking about Jasnah. But I found showing that page to family member’s and other people has been useful in explaining my condition to other people as with the exception of Gaze avoidance (which I was lucky enough to miss out on, a lot of what it said REALLY hit the mark for me.) Incidentally, I stumbled upon that page after reading Bands of Morning and connecting with Steris and came to the realization that SHE had Asperger’s as a lot of her reactions hit a cord with me. As a result I went to the updated TVTropes page for her character and followed the link to the useful notes page I mentioned.
I could go on in detail here, like reasons for the glasses response but I don’t want to derail the thread I s there anyway we can continue this conversation in Private Messages?
I love Steris so much :) My old boyfriend used to (affectionately) tease me about my Lists (the capital L was definitely implied, lol) so I was like yeaaaah girl! LISTS.
In some ways going through my son’s journey has been very illuminating for myself as well, as there are many, many similarities between me and my son and experiences I had as a child (which were just treated as me being weird, awkward or doing something wrong or like I was trying to purposefully be obstinate). I honestly don’t know if, as a child (or even now), I would have ever warranted a formal diagnosis (I hesitate to jump on the armchair diagnosis bandwagon) but there are so many things that I relate to very intimately and sheds a lot of light on the difficulties I had (and sometimes still have, lol) growing up.
I did get your message and will try to get to it more thoroughly in the coming days :)
Re: the rockbud and water:
Could there be a parallel between the ecosystem here and on Taldain? I’ve always suspected similarity between the rockshells and bug like creatures in White Sand (especially the sand monsters and chasm fiends)
I was always a little uncomfortable with how docile the parshmen were as slaves and how they then were theorized to be the voidbringers, and seemingly deserving of enslavement. I’m glad Brandon turned that on its head in this book, especially giving the free parshmen the chance to really blast the people and society that did that to them. As usual with his books, nothing is simple. It’s pretty amazing how he can write with such complexity and empathy for people with such different views and perspectives, without outright demonizing (or sanctifying) the actions or motivations of either.